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 Autor: Danijel Turina
 Datum: 2004-02-09 10:14:46
 Grupe: hr.soc.religija
 Tema: Re: ogledalo/zrcalo
 Linija: 224
 Message-ID: heje20tsacrfqjevf4k7qnh911o2r6eprr@4ax.com

...
Then things cleared a bit. Rocks, a stagnant pool, some small, dreary
trees festooned with ropes of moss, a smell of decay . . . hurried by.
A dark bird was watching me from one of the trees.
It took wing as I regarded it, flapping in a leisurely fashion in my
direction. Recent events having left me a little bird-shy, I drew back
as it circled my head. But then it fluttered to rest on the trail
before me, cocked its head and viewed me with its left eye.
"Yes," it announced then. "You are the one."
"The one what?" I said.
"The one I will accompany. You've no objection to a bird of ill omen
following you, have you, Corwin?" It chuckled then, and executed a
little dance.
"Offhand, I do not see how I can stop you. How is it that you know my
name?"
"I've been waiting for you since the beginning of Time, Corwin."
"Must have been a bit tiresome."
"It has not been all that long, in this place. Time is what you make
of it."
I resumed walking. I passed the bird and kept going. Moments later, it
flashed by me and landed atop a rock off to my right.
"My name is Hugi," he stated. "You are carrying a piece of old Ygg, I
see."
"Ygg?"
"The stuffy old tree who waits at the entrance to this place and won't
let anyone rest on his branches. I'll bet he yelled when you whacked
it off."
He emitted peals of laughter then.
"He was quite decent about it."
"I'll bet. But then, he hadn't much choice once you'd done it. Fat lot
of good it will do you."
"It's doing me fine," I said, swinging it lightly in his direction.
He fluttered away from it.
"Hey! That was not funny!" I laughed.
"I thought it was." I walked on by.
For a long while, I made my way through a marshy area. An occasional
gust of wind would clear the way nearby. Then I would pass it, or the
fogs would shift over it once again. Occasionally, I seemed to hear a
snatch of music-from what direction, I could not tell-slow, and
somewhat stately, produced by a steel-stringed instrument..
As I slogged along, I was hailed from somewhere to my left:
"Stranger! Halt and regard me!"
Wary, I halted. Couldn't see a damned thing through that fog, though.
"Hello," I said. "Where are you?"
Just then, the fogs broke for a moment and I beheld a huge head, eyes
on a level with my own. They belonged to what seemed a giant body,
sunk up to the shoulders in a quag. The head was bald, the skin pale
as milk, with a stony texture to it. The dark eyes probably seemed
even darker than they really were by way of contrast.
"I see," I said then. "You are in a bit of a fix. Can you free your
arms?"
"If I strain mightily," came the reply.
"Well, let me check about for something stable you can grab onto. You
ought to have a pretty good reach there."
"No. That is not necessary."
"Dont you want to get out? I thought that was why you hollered."
"Oh, no. I simply wanted you to regard me."
I moved nearer and stared, for the fog was beginning to shift again.
"All right," I said. "I have seen you."
"Do you feel my plight?"
"Not particularly, if you will not help yourself or accept help."
"What good would it do me to free myself?"
"It is your question. You answer it."
I turned to go.
"Wait! Where do you travel?"
"South, to appear in a morality play."
Just then, Hugi flew out of the fog and landed atop the head. He
pecked at it and laughed.
"Don't waste your time, Corwin. There is much less here than meets the
eye," he said.
The giant lips shaped my name. Then; "He is indeed the one?"
"That's him, all right," Hugi replied.
"Listen, Corwin," said the sunken giant. "You are going to try to stop
the Chaos, aren't you?"
"Yes."
"Do not do it. It is not worth it. I want things to end. I desire a
release from this condition."
"I already offered to help you out. You turned me down."
"Not that sort of release. An end to the whole works."
"That is easily done," I said. "Just duck your head and take a deep
breath."
"It is not only personal termination that I desire, but an end to the
whole foolish game."
"I believe there are a few other folks around who would rather make
their own decisions on the matter."
"Let it end for them, too. There will come a time when they are in my
position and will feel the same way."
"Then they will possess the same option. Good day."
I turned and walked on.
"You will, too!" he called after me.
As I hiked along, Hugi caught up with me and perched on the end of my
staff.
"It's neat to sit on old Ygg's limb now he can't-Yikes!"
Hugi sprang into the air and circled.
"Burned my foot! How'd he do that?" he cried.
I laughed.
"Beats me."
He fluttered for a few moments, then made for my right shoulder.
"Okay if I rest here?"
"Go ahead."
"Thanks."
He settled.
"The Head is really a mental basket case, you know."
I shrugged my shoulders and he spread his wings for balance.
"He is groping after something," he went on, "but proceeding
incorrectly by holding the world responsible for his own failings."
"No. He would not even grope to get out of the mud," I said.
"I meant philosophically."
"Oh, that sort of mud. Too bad."
"The whole problem lies with the self, the ego, and its involvement
with the world on the one hand and the Absolute on the other."
"Oh, is that so?"
"Yes. You see, we are hatched and we drift on the surface of events.
Sometimes, we feel that we actually influence things, and this gives
rise to striving. This is a big mistake, because it creates desires
and builds up a false ego when just being should be enough. That leads
to more desires and more striving and there you are, trapped."
"In the mud?"
"So to speak. One needs to fix one's vision firmly on the Absolute and
learn to ignore the mirages, the illusions, the fake sense of identity
which sets one apart as a false island of consciousness."
"I had a fake identity once. It helped me a lot in becoming the
absolute that I am now-me."
"No, that's fake, too."
"Then the me that may exist tomorrow will thank me for it, as I do
that other."
"You are missing the point. That you will be fake, too."
"Why?"
"Because it will still be full of those desires and strivings that set
you apart from the Absolute."
"What is wrong with that?"
"You remain alone in a world of strangers, the world of phenomena."
"I like being alone. I am quite fond of myself. I like phenomena,
too."
"Yet the Absolute will always be there, calling to you, causing
unrest."
"Good, then there is no need to hurry. But yes, I see what you mean.
It takes the form of ideals. Everyone has a few. If you are saying
that I should pursue them, I agree with you."
"No, they are distortions of the Absolute, and what you are talking
about is more striving."
"That is correct."
"I can see that you have a lot to unlearn."
"If you are talking about my vulgar instinct for survival, forget it."
The trail had been leading upward, and we came now to a smooth, level
place, almost paved-seeming, though strewn lightly with sand. The
music had grown louder and continued to do so as I advanced. Then,
through the fog, I saw dim shapes moving, slowly, rhythmically. It
took several moments for me to realize that they were dancing to the
music.
I kept moving until I could view the figures-human seeming, handsome
folk, garbed in courtly attire-treading to the slow measures of
invisible musicians. It was an intricate and lovely dance that they
executed, and I halted to watch some of it.
"What is the occasion," I asked Hugi, "for a party out here in the
middle of nowhere?"
"They dance," he said, "to celebrate your passage. They are not
mortals, but the spirits of Time. They began this foolish show when
you entered the valley."
"Spirits?"
"Yes. Observe."
He left my shoulder, flew above them and defecated. The dropping
passed through several dancers as if they were holograms, without
staining a brocaded sleeve or a silken shirt, without causing any of
the smiling figures to miss a measure. Hugi cawed several times then
and flew back to me.
"That was hardly necessary," I said. "It is a fine performance."
"Decadent," he said, "and you should hardly take it as a compliment,
for they anticipate your failure. They but wish to get in a final
celebration before the show is closed."
I watched for a time anyway, leaning upon my staff, resting. The
figure described by the dancers slowly shifted, until one of the
women-an auburn-haired beauty-was quite near to me. Now, none of the
dancers' eyes at any time met my own. It was as if I were not present.
But that woman, in a perfectly timed gesture, cast with her right hand
something which landed at my feet.
I stooped and found it substantial. It was a silver rose-my own
emblem-that I held. I straightened and fixed it at the collar of my
cloak. Hugi looked the other way and said nothing. I had no hat to
doff, but I did bow to the lady. There might have been a slight twitch
at her right eye as I turned to go.
The ground lost its smoothness as I walked, and finally the music
faded. The trail grew rougher, and whenever the fogs cleared the only
views were of rocks or barren plains. I drew strength from the Jewel
when I would otherwise have collapsed, and I noted that each such fix
was of shorter duration now.
After a time, I grew hungry and I halted to eat what rations I had
left.
Hugi stood on the ground nearby and watched me eat.
"I will admit to a certain small admiration for your persistence," he
said, "and even for what you implied when you spoke of ideals. But
that is about it. Earlier, we were talking about the futility of
desire and of striving-"
"You were. It is not a major concern in my life."
"It should be."
"I have had a long life, Hugi. You insult me by assuming I have never
considered these footnotes to sophomore philosophy. The fact that you
find consensus reality barren tells me more about you than it does
about that state of affairs. To wit, if you believe what you say I
feel sorry for you, in that you must for some inexplicable reason be
here desiring and striving to influence this false ego of mine rather
than free of such nonsense and on your way to your Absolute. If you do
not believe it, then it tells me that you have been set to hinder and
discourage me, in which case you are wasting your time."
Hugi made a gargling noise. Then: "You are not so blind that you deny
the Absolute, the beginning and end of everything?"
"It is not indispensable to a liberal education."
"You admit the possibility?"
"Perhaps I know it better than you, bird. The ego, as I see it, exists
at an intermediate stage between rationality and reflex existence.
Blotting it out is a retreat, though. If you come from that
Absolute-of a self-canceling All-why do you wish to go back home? Do
you so despise yourself that you fear mirrors? Why not make the trip
worthwhile? Develop. Learn. Live. If you have been sent on a journey
why do you wish to cop out and run back to your point of departure? Or
did your Absolute make a mistake in sending something of your caliber?
Admit that possibility and that is the end of the news."
Hugi glared at me, then sprang into the air and flew off. Going to
consult his manual, perhaps. . . .

(Roger Zelazny, "The Courts of Chaos")

--
http://www.danijel.org/



 Autor: Danijel Turina
 Datum: 2004-02-09 09:54:22
 Grupe: hr.soc.religija
 Tema: Re: ogledalo/zrcalo
 Linija: 19
 Message-ID: qkie201q457gqqmcn9lo4eqcpua0clta30@4ax.com

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:21:25 +0100, x-sender wrote:

>Ja jesam.
>
>Ima li smisla biti?
>
>Ima.
>
>Sta kaze Rajneesh?
>
>Budi.
>
>Ja jesam.

Nije poanta jesi li ili nisi. Poanta je sto si. A to Rajinish i ostali
prodavaci magle izbjegavaju kao vrag tamjan.

--
http://www.danijel.org/



 Autor: Danijel Turina
 Datum: 2004-02-08 23:17:59
 Grupe: hr.soc.religija
 Tema: Re: ogledalo/zrcalo
 Linija: 18
 Message-ID: r8dd20dl5rtucs6jropcjetr1ofpbsisni@4ax.com

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:58:59 +0100, x-sender wrote:
>>Nije, sustina je spoznati istinu. Biti opusten i smiren u svojoj
>>gluposti i zabludi je najgore stanje u kojem se mozes naci. Bolje bi
>>ti bilo da si jako uzrujan i uznemiren i gledas kako da se iz tog
>>loseg polozaja izbavis.
>
>
>Nesto se ogledam u ogledalu...jebem ti..., kako sam ruzan na ovom
>ogledalu! Ogledalo prsnulo od ruznoce...krccc... mozda bi trebalo da
>prestanem piti kavu? gde smo ono stali? Ja zaboravio. Secas li se ti?

Razgovarali smo o tome ima li smisla prakticirati Rajinishov nauk, a
ti si svojim primjerom pokazao kako izgleda um nekoga tko to
prakticira, a tvoj primjer dokazuje moje tvrdnje bolje nego bilo sto,
sto bih mogao reci na tu temu.

--
http://www.danijel.org/



 Autor: Danijel Turina
 Datum: 2004-02-08 14:03:07
 Grupe: hr.soc.religija
 Tema: Re: ogledalo/zrcalo
 Linija: 23
 Message-ID: socc20hmpjvj70n5fg4qdb1np5rsh4d24n@4ax.com

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 12:41:50 +0100, x-sender wrote:

>Ostanem ja kakav jesam, opusten i smiren, uzivajuci u jutarnjoj kavi.
>To je sustina. :)

Nije, sustina je spoznati istinu. Biti opusten i smiren u svojoj
gluposti i zabludi je najgore stanje u kojem se mozes naci. Bolje bi
ti bilo da si jako uzrujan i uznemiren i gledas kako da se iz tog
loseg polozaja izbavis.

>Glupo je smisljati nesto pametno.

Izgleda da je to maksima na kojoj si temeljio svjetonazor, a rezultati
su tome sukladni.

>Pametno je ziveti radosno i ne snisljati nista pametno.
>
>od pameti boli glava.

To je valjda na temu "kako je lepo biti glup".

--
http://www.danijel.org/



 Autor: Danijel Turina
 Datum: 2004-02-07 20:43:02
 Grupe: hr.soc.religija
 Tema: Re: ogledalo/zrcalo
 Linija: 14
 Message-ID: erfa20honushmko81g35uvp6ui5bti15os@4ax.com

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:07:33 +0100, x-sender wrote:

>Ne gradim nikakvu filosofiju vec razgovaram sa zvim ljudima.

Ma da, tako sam ja po tebi ispao krscanin. Razgovaras ti sa svojim
dupetom, cini mi se.

>Ko zna sta cu sutra napisati?

Vjerojatno nista suvislo i smisleno, ako je suditi po do sada
vidjenom.

--
http://www.danijel.org/



 Autor: Danijel Turina
 Datum: 2004-02-07 12:41:41
 Grupe: hr.soc.religija
 Tema: Re: ogledalo/zrcalo
 Linija: 41
 Message-ID: p2j9205g0u50sjtr6smcl53oine7pb50c5@4ax.com

On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 12:15:34 +0100, "Drazen Simunic"
wrote:
>> Ovde se ne radi o znanju i neznanju nego o prisebnosti. On sve vreme
>> sebe gelde u ogledalu/zrcalu, i govori tako ebi o sebi. I ja govorim
>> sebi o sebi. Coveka uopste ne poznajem i ne mgu nista reci o njemu. Ja
>> jako dobro poznajem sebe i o sebi mogu govoriti. Ti i on ne znate o
>> cemu govorite kad govorite o drugome, jer ne poznajete drugoga. Samo
>> projektujete svoje dobre ili pre rdjave osobine na drugoga. Drugi, tj
>> ja, samo je ogledalo/zrcalo u kojem vi vidite svoje sopstveno lepo ili
>> ruzno lice. ogledalo je neutralno. Zaista nemam nista protiv vas :)
>> Naprotiv :)
>
>
>Ti si se javio s nekim tekstom. Tu je bilo svasta od tantre, Bude, Isusa
>pa do izjave da je ljubav nemoralna. Bilo bi dobro da napises sto je za
>tebe ljubav? Sto je za tebe moral? Zasto moral i ljubav nije spojiva?
>Budes li to probao objasnit i samom ce ti puno toga biti jasnije ukljucujuci
>i ovaj zadnji biser sa zrcalom. Zaista nemam nista protiv tebe. :)

Tip naprosto ne kuzi da je moralnost posljedica ljubavi, a da je ono,
sto Rajinish naziva ljubavlju, a sto ima za rezultat nemoralno
ponasanje, zapravo samoljublje i egocentrizam. Brijes si svoju
brijicu, tebi je super, i boli te kurac kako to djeluje na druge, a
ako se netko buni, to je njegov problem, svijet je ionako ogledalo, pa
ako vidi nesto problematicno, to je valjda odraz neprihvacenih stvari
u njegovoj nutrini kojima treba dati ljubav, ili takvo neko slicno
sranje. A kad ih karma lupi po glavi, onda samo gledaju sto je.
Zato ja velim da je anahata cakra najgorih sranja. Nadisao si neke
grube pizdarije, nisi dosao do tocke da jos ista zbiljsko shvacas, a
mislis da je to prava stvar i ne das si nista reci, misleci da si svu
pamet popio, i blesavo se smjeskas i zelis svima ljubav i dobro. Koma.
To ti je po sistemu, ides prema provaliji i nis ne kuzis, vidis da ti
neki covjek uzrujano nesto pokazuje, a ti mu se veselo nasmijes i
saljes mu ljubav i svjetlost da ga prodje uzrujanost i da vidi kako
covjeku moze biti dobro, i dok tako sam sebi cestitas kako si super,
padnes u provaliju.
I onda od svega toga nista ne shvatis i nastavis si brijati isto ali
na astralu.

--
http://www.danijel.org/



 Autor: Danijel Turina
 Datum: 2004-02-07 10:27:25
 Grupe: hr.soc.religija
 Tema: Re: ogledalo/zrcalo
 Linija: 13
 Message-ID: 9qb920tj9h9qild0l1nj4lsr20pqvp68hs@4ax.com

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:03:13 +0100, x-sender wrote:

>Ti i on ne znate o
>cemu govorite kad govorite o drugome, jer ne poznajete drugoga. Samo
>projektujete svoje dobre ili pre rdjave osobine na drugoga.

Tu "mudrost" si valjda od Rajinisha prepisao.
I te kako mi mozemo govoriti o tebi, i to daleko objektivnije od tebe
samog, jer te mi gledamo i vidimo, a ti ne vidis nista, jer imas glavu
u pijesku.

--
http://www.danijel.org/



 Autor: Danijel Turina
 Datum: 2004-02-06 20:36:35
 Grupe: hr.soc.religija
 Tema: Re: Tantra
 Linija: 21
 Message-ID: 22r720ln3bifsq1erh2flpsk9feledjskf@4ax.com

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 20:09:51 +0100, x-sender wrote:
>>Ma naravno da sada nema problema. Problemi ce nastati ako ti s
>>rijeci predjes na djela. Uz onu problematicnu recenicu da je ljubav
>>nemoralna imas jos jednu koja je specijalno zabrinjavajuca.
>>Ta recenica glasi 'Isus je bio veliki tantrika, ne po praksi nego po
>>prirodi'. Drugim rijecima ti Isusa vidis kao nesavrsenog u djelima iz
>>cega proizlazi mnogo cega sto ti ja necu objasnjavati jer ti to neces
>>shvatiti. Uglavnom pazi se jer zemaljski zakoni su bazirani na moralu
>>i tim zakonima si takodjer podlozan.
>
>Kao sto rekoh, razumeo si kako jedino mozes...

Ti naprosto ne razumijes da nisi ti u usporedbi s njim u poziciji
znanja, a on u poziciji neznanja, nego je obratno, i to toliko da si
uopce ne mozes zamisliti koliko. Ti si u usporedbi s njim malo siroce
koje okolo hoda s glavom u supku i nista ne razumije. Kad bi sa svom
svojom pamecu meditirao o onome sto ti je rekao recimo sljedecih
dvadeset godina, mozda bi shvatio deset posto.

--
http://www.danijel.org/



 Autor: Danijel Turina
 Datum: 2004-02-05 11:34:55
 Grupe: hr.soc.religija
 Tema: Re: duhovnost i moral
 Linija: 8
 Message-ID: 3274205n7v7i759pt30ggpn8b23k0d66dp@4ax.com

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:51:06 +0100, x-sender wrote:

>Pusti sad Rajneesha... Nema Rajneesha.

Sva sreca.

--
http://www.danijel.org/



 Autor: Danijel Turina
 Datum: 2004-02-05 09:34:58
 Grupe: hr.soc.religija
 Tema: Re: duhovnost i moral
 Linija: 18
 Message-ID: 6rv3205d9842dq37b2oriagrg0rarjf8ds@4ax.com

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 23:57:27 +0100, x-sender wrote:

>To bi morao pitati one moralne koji su ga optuzili za nemoral.

Aha, dakle nemas svoje misljenje, nego Rajinishevo.

>Religioznost zasnovana
>na moralu i pukom verovanju je lazna religioznost.

A kakva je tek "religioznost" zasnovana na pukom vjerovanju i bludnom
ponasanju...? Ona gdje osim pukog vjerovanja imas moral barem te
sprecava da ne ides raditi najgore vrste sranja. A naravno da nitko
tko slijedi Rajinishove budalastine nece transcendirati puko
vjerovanje i uci u sferu iskustva Boga. Ako to ni samom Rajinishu nije
uspjelo, mogu misliti kako ce uspjeti ucenicima.

--
http://www.danijel.org/



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