-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Tomislav Portada wrote:
> "Danijel Turina"  wrote:
> 
>> Kad mozak ostane bez kisika, padneš u nesvijest i ne sjećaš se 
>> ničega. Ne haluciniraš i nemaš nikakvo NDE iskustvo. Da je 
>> hipoksija uzrok NDE iskustva onda bi ljudi koji vježbaju ultimate 
>> fight i koji su sto puta pali u nesvijest uslijed manevra 
>> vaskularne restrikcije (choke-out) imali NDE iskustva, ali nitko od
>>  njih o tome ne priča.
> 
> Međutim, postoje dokumentirani slučajevi kada su piloti, izloženi 
> velikim akceleracijama, upadali u stanje gravitacijski induciranog 
> gubitka svijesti pri čemu su doživljavali iskustva slična NDE:

Ma moš si mislit. Jel ti uopće znaš od čega se sastoji NDE? Što su
doživljavali piloti? Gledali su s visine mrtvo tijelo u centrifugi i
mislili "jao, jadan čovjek", i onda po imenu na uniformi prepoznali "pa
to je moje tijelo - ali kako sam onda živ ako sam mrtav??" - nakon toga
su prošli kroz tunel do bijelog svjetla u kojem je postojalo biće koje
ih je smirilo, koje je izgledalo kao Bog ili Isus ali su imali dojam da
je netko treći, jako svet. Pokazao im je retrospektivu njihovog života i
pomogao im da shvate pouku iskustva. Onda im je rekao "morate se
vratiti". Oni su rekli da nema šanse, ovdje im je super. Onda im je biće
pokazalo njihovu obitelj koja ih čeka. Piloti su prema tome osjetili
privlačnost i probudili su se okruženi doktorima koji ih vade iz centrifuge.

Tako nešto, ili se nekome vidno polje suzilo u tunel pa ti misliš da je
to NDE? Pogledao sam taj članak, ništa od toga nije NDE, s tim da ne
isključujem mogućnost da je netko od pilota doslovno ubijen centrifugom
pa su ga morali ozbiljno reanimirati, u kojem slučaju je taj mogao
doživjeti pravi NDE.

> http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers06.html
> 
>> Nitko na temelju halucinogena nije ispričao ništa slično NDE 
>> iskustvu. Halucinacije su potpuno različit fenomen bez ikakvih 
>> dodirnih točaka.
> 
> http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html
> 
> According to Dr. Jansen, ketamine can reproduce all the main features
>  of the NDE, including travel through a dark tunnel into the light, 
> the feeling that one is dead, communing with God, hallucinations, 
> out-of-body experiences, strange noises, etc. This does not prove 
> that the NDE is nothing but a set of physical responses, nor does it 
> prove that there is no life after death. It does, however, prove that
>  an NDE is not compelling evidence for belief in either the existence
>  of a separate consciousness or of an afterlife.

Sve to zvuči divno i krasno u ovakvom sažetku, a kad pogledaš stvarni
opis nema nikakve sličnosti, radi se o tome da materijalisti proizvode
namjerne falsifikate u izvještajima kako bi proizveli bilo što a da liči
na NDE. Do sada im nije uspjelo. NDE je iskustvo zagrobnog života, i ne
može se reproducirati nikako drugačije nego smrću.

Osim toga, zbog česte zloupotrebe riječi "skeptik" od strane takvih
lažljivaca meni ta riječ ima slične konotacije kao "pedofil". Također,
sličnosti nisu samo površne. I pedofili vele da oni *vole* djecu, premda
svi znamo kako ih vole; tako i "skeptici" trube da im je najbitnija
istina, a spremni su ići do nevjerojatnih stvari kako bi sakrili i
iskrivili istinu. Ja još nisam vidio luđaka koji tvrdi da ljudi nisu
bili na Mjesecu koji ne bi za sebe mislio da je racionalni skeptik, a da
su ostali slijepo stado vjernika koje vjeruje u iracionalnosti.

Prije nego su se pojavila NDE iskustva zbog masovnosti reanimacije,
klasični materijalistički argument protiv postojanja zagrobnog života je
bio taj što se nitko nije vratio, nema svjedoka o tome. Sad ima
svjedoka, hrpa ljudi se vratila iz smrti i ispričala što je tamo.
Apsolutno ne želim čuti nikakva lažljiva materijalistička izmotavanja
kojima bi se to na bilo kakav način iskrivilo. Izvolite priznati da ste
bili u krivu i da je dokazano da postoji zagrobni život, pa onda dalje
možemo raspravljati o implikacijama, ali ne želim razgovarati s luđacima
koji pokušavaju negirati činjenice; podsjećaju me na onoga koji se
Aldrinu unosio u lice govoreći mu da je lažljivac i prevarant i da nije
bio na Mjesecu.

Moždana aktivnost my ass.
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html#a1

(1)  NDEs occur while patients are brain dead.

> Cardiologist Michael Sabom described a near-death experience
> that occurred while its
> experiencer - a woman who was having an unusual surgical procedure
> for the safe excision and repair of a large basilar artery aneurysm -
> met all of the accepted criteria for brain death. The unusual medical
> procedure involved the induction of hypothermic cardiac arrest, in
> order to insure that the aneurysm at the base of the brain would not
> rupture during the operation. The patient's body temperature was
> lowered to 60 degrees Fahrenheit, her heartbeat and breathing ceased,
> her brain waves flattened, and the blood was completely drained from
> her head. Her electroencephalogram was totally flat (indicating no
> cerebral electrical activity) and auditory evoked potentials
> (normally elicited by clicks presented through molded earplugs that
> had been inserted into her ears) ceased (indicating cessation of
> brainstem functioning). Ordinarily - at regular body temperature -
> the brain cannot function without its oxygen supply for more than a
> few minutes. Lowering the body and brain temperature to 60 degrees F.
> - by chilling the blood in a bypass machine before returning it to
> the body and brain - however, can reduce cellular metabolism so that
> the brain can tolerate complete cerebral blood flow for the 45
> minutes or so required for the brain operation. The patient later
> reported that, apparently while under these ?brain death? conditions,
> she had a near-death experience (NDE) in which she was able to
> observe and hear details of objects and happenings in the operating
> room with accuracy. She also experienced classic components of the
> NDE, including a tunnel vortex, a bright light, and different figures
> in the light (many deceased family members, including a distant
> cousin of whose death she had been unaware).

(2)  Out-of-body perception during NDEs have been verified.

> Dr. Bruce Greyson documented perhaps one of the most compelling
> examples of a person who had a NDE and observed events while outside
> of his body which were later verified by others. The only way that
> these events could have been observed by the experiencer was if in
> fact he was outside of his body. Al Sullivan was a 55 year old truck
> driver who was undergoing triple by-pass surgery when he had a
> powerful NDE that included an encounter with his deceased mother and
> brother-in-law, who told Al to go back to his to tell one of his
> neighbors that their son with lymphoma will be OK. Furthermore,
> during the NDE, Al accurately noticed that the surgeon operating on
> him was flapping his arms in an unusual fashion, with his hands in
> his armpits. When he came back to his body after the surgery was
> over, the surgeon was startled that Al could describe his own arm
> flapping, which was his idiosyncratic method of keeping his hands
> sterile.
> 
> Addressing the frequent rejoinder that such events can be accounted
> for as hallucinations, Dr. Greyson notes that if NDEs are
> hallucinations, then how is it that such incredibly accurate and
> verifiable information is resulting from the NDEs? People on drugs
> who have NDEs see fewer deceased relatives when they travel out of
> body. This suggests that people who do see relatives are
> clear-minded, not hallucinating. In some cases of children, they see
> dead relatives whom they had never met or seen pictures of. This begs
> the following question: How could they hallucinate accurately the
> visual images of someone they have never met? When assessing the
> surmounting data as a whole, Greyson said that the survival
> hypothesis is the most parsimonious explanation for the growing
> database of NDEs.
> 
> The author Maggie Callanan in her 1993 book, Final Gifts, wrote about
> an elderly Chinese woman who had an NDE in which she saw her deceased
> husband and her sister. She was puzzled since her sister wasn't dead,
> or so she thought. In actuality, her family had hid her sister's
> recent death from her for fear of upsetting her already fragile
> health.


- --
http://www.danijel.org/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEAREKAAYFAkyVt70ACgkQU8G6/NHezOcNfACgvB3xZxtmTmZd61SiyJtQyNV5
ogkAn0UKDge2vh3b69jEwve23Jc9d5J8
=IgvJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----