X-Ftn-To: Natron 

"Natron"  wrote:
>U nekom Vasem postu od prije nekoliko dana  sam procitao kako ste
>okarektarisali muslimane kao ljude koji ne znaju voditi raspravu o pitanjima
>koja su u suprotnosti sa njihovom vjerom, odnosno kao ljude koji se nadu
>uvrijedeni na svaki negativan komentar o njihovoj vjeri. 

Ne pada mi na pamet vise voditi bilo kakve rasprave s muslimanima o
religiji. Jednostavno mi se ne da razgovarati s ljudima koji svaku
tezu koja im se ne uklapa u sustav tumace kao osobnu uvredu, a s druge
strane vrijedjaju svakoga tko im se suprotstavi. Takvih "rasprava" sam
vodio nekoliko do sada, i svode se na to da ja dam argumente, na to
dobijem uvrede, onda dam jos argumenata, i dobijem jos uvreda, a
jedini kontraargumenti se svode na to da je grijeh reci bilo sto
negativno o Kur'anu zato sto je to cista i neposredna rijec Bozja, ili
o Muhamedu zato sto je on Bozji poslanik, a da ako netko ima o tome
negativno misljenje, uzrok tom njegovom misljenju mora biti ili
njegova gresna narav, ili neupucenost. To nisu uvjeti u kojima se moze
voditi rasprava. Osim toga, rasprava bi morala sluziti nekakvoj
korisnoj svrsi, koju ja ovdje ne vidim, vidim jedino da ce hrpa ljudi
biti totalno nadrkana i lose volje. Covjece, pa jesi li ti gledao sto
se ovdje pise, muslimanski fanatik zali sto nije imao prilike tuci
Hare Krishne u Sarajevu, a istovremeno mi objasnjava da su muslimani
miroljubivi - dok im se nesto ne dopadne, naravno. 

Razlozi za moje misljenje o Kur'anu se tesko mogu objektivizirati, jer
se ne radi o tome da _neki_ pojedini dio teksta ne valja, nego je
citav tekst tako slabe kvalitete, da proglasavanje takvog teksta
svetim spisom predstavlja uvredu Bogu. To je kao da mi netko da
stotine stranica tlapnji koje su o Bogu pisali ludjaci, i pita me sto
u tome tocno ne valja. Nista ne valja. Jednostavno nema dobrih
elemenata, nema nicega zbog cega bih imao ikakve potrebe drzati da se
radi o svetom spisu. Ako nema pozitivnog argumenta, sto ce mi
negativni. To je kao da netko trazi dokaz da jednorozi ne postoje.
Treba on navesti dokaz da postoje, a ne obrnuto, pretpostavljati da
postoje, pa ako tko veli da ne postoje, uvrijediti se.

Ako hoces analiticke argumente, procitaj si sljedece linkove. Ocito
postoje ljudi koji su si dali truda pa su svoje zamjerke pretocili u
sustavnu analizu, sto se meni ne da.

http://answering-islam.org.uk
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/index.html
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Muhammad/Enemies/asma.html
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/index.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/satanicverses.htm

Sto se moralnosti tice, Muhamed je imao otprilike 12 zena, od kojih je
najmladja bila Aisha, kcer Abu Bakra, koju je ozenio kad je imala 6
godina, a seks s njom je imao otkad je imala 9. To su sve cinjenice
koje ni muslimani ne osporavaju jer su navedene u njihovim relevantnim
tekstovima:
Sahih Muslim
Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may
peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was
admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Muslim
Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may
peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he
was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls
were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen
years old.

Moje je misljenje da covjek, koji je slinio nad curicom od 4-5 godina,
koju je ozenio kad je imala 6, a sevio kad je imala 9, a koji je
"problem" neprijatelja rjesavao ubojstvima u potaji i drugim vrstama
nasilja, ciji su tekstovi totalno kaoticni i nesuvisli, zbrkani,
nasumicno razbacani i mutni, jednostavno nema pravo na moje
uvazavanje, ja ne vidim nikakav razlog da njemu priznam bilo kakvu
pozitivnu kvalitetu, pa makar milijardu ljudi govorilo suprotno. Eto. 

A sto se tice licemjerne tvrdnje o islamskoj toleranciji prema drugim
religijama, evo primjera kako ta "tolerancija" izgleda:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/TWOR/peacepromoting.html
" In Saudi Arabia, freedom of religion is nonexistent. It is illegal
to read a Bible or vocalize a non-Muslim prayer in the privacy of your
own home. Under Islamic law, conversion to Christianity by a Saudi
citizen is punishable by beheading. Saudiâ??s leaders do not support the
idea that Islam "instructs people on how they may live together in
peace and harmony regardless of race, class or beliefs." According to
Amnesty International, the persecution of Christians in Saudi Arabia
has "increased dramatically" since the Gulf War. More than a thousand
cases have been documented in which Christian foreign workers have
been arrested, imprisoned and/or beaten for participating in private
worship meetings."
"A more moderate Islamic nation across the Red Sea from Saudi Arabia
is Egypt. I recently met a family who has fled Egypt to seek asylum in
the West. The reason? Constant harassment because of their religious
beliefs. In Egypt, Christians can't even paint their walls or do minor
repairs on their church buildings without a building permitâ??a permit
that is virtually impossible to obtain. One particular woman had her
identity papers confiscated and is being kept under house arrestâ??all
because she left Islam to follow Christ. The charge of "denigrating
Islam" is regularly leveled against Christians who are involved in
leading a Muslim to Christ. "
"The harsh reality is that in every country where Shariâ??a is embraced,
non-Muslims face, at best, discrimination, social ostracism and
harassment, and, at worst, prison, torture, and deathâ??for nothing
other than their religious beliefs. A horrifying example of Shariâ??a
and Jihad in combination can be seen just south of Egyptâ??in Sudan,
where, since 1983, the Muslim Arab North has killed an estimated two
million non-Muslim blacks in south. Another five million have been
displaced. Slavery, rape, torture, forced Qurâ??anic indoctrination of
children, and bombings of churches are regular events. Over in
Indonesia, the Laksar Jihad, a well-organized, well-funded, and
well-armed Islamic militia (which, like many other Islamic groups,
includes soldiers imported from other Islamic countries) is waging a
campaign to annihilate the Christian population there. Over the past
several years, thousands of Indonesians have been butchered for the
crime of not converting to Islam. If Islam is for "peace and harmony
regardless of race, class or beliefs"â??then where is the widespread
outrage over these ongoing atrocities committed in the name of Allah?"
"Yes, accusations could be raised about horrible atrocities committed
by those who have called themselves Christians (Crusades, Inquisition,
slave trade, abortions, etc.). Yet, we must be honest and admit the
fundamental difference between the two. Violence and oppression
committed in the name of Christ is in absolute opposition to the
teaching Christ who said, "Love your enemies, bless those who curse
you ... whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them ..."
(Matthew 5:44; 7:12) and who prayed for those who nailed Him to a
cross, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do!" (Luke
23:34). However, violent acts carried out against those who refuse to
submit to Islam is in apparent agreement with the teaching of the
Qurâ??an (see above verses in the first point) and the example of
Muhammad.

3. MUHAMMADâ??S EXAMPLE. History tells us that, at first, Muhammad did
not use force to induce the Jews, Christians and pagans to accept
Islam. Later, however, when people and circumstances turned against
him and when he began to gather an army to himself, he began telling
his followers that the latest "revelations from Allah" were saying
things like, "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites
and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (9:73) Thus
began Muhammadâ??s career of warring in the name of Allah. Those
defeated by Muhammad were offered protection if they would submit to
the dictates of Islam. Those that refused to become Muslims had the
"choice" either to pay tribute or to be put to death. This is the
apparent "peace and tolerance" Muhammad offered to non-Muslims in his
treaty with the people of Khaibar and to others. Non-Muslims were the
Dhimmis (the people of obligation) and, as such, were to be "utterly
subdued" (9:29)."

"A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and
then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they
said, â??O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk.â?? Allah's Apostle
said, â??I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.â?? So they
went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine)
till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and
drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were
Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent
some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were
brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for
nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left
in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and
nobody provided them with water till they died." (Hadith, Sahih
Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261: Narrated by Anas bin Malik.)"

"The oldest still-available biography of Muhammad is called the "Sirat
Rasul Allah" ("Life of the Prophet of Allah"). This book was written
by Ibn Ishaq a century before any of the major works of the Hadith.
"Sirat Rasulallah" is considered the most authentic biography of
Muhammad. On page 515, we read of an event that took place about three
years before Muhammad's death. This specific narrative tells of
Muhammadâ??s conquest of Khaibar, a large Jewish settlement with some of
the best date palms in the region. The Jews of Khaibar were prosperous
merchants, craftsmen, and farmers. Kinana al-Rabi, who was said to
have had the custody of a certain hidden treasure, was brought to
Muhammad who asked him about it. Kinana denied that he knew where it
was. A Jew came to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going
round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to
Kinana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" he
said "Yes." Muhammad gave orders that the ruin be excavated and some
of the treasure was found. When he asked Kinana about the rest of the
treasure he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to
al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he
kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly
dead. Then Muhammad delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck
off his head. Were Muhammadâ??s actions in keeping with a religion that
is for peace? And this is only one such example among many."

"Friends, do not take my word on this. Do your own research. Take a
look at the above-mentioned biography (English translation: "The Life
of Muhammad" by A. Guillaume; Oxford Univ. Press) or "23 Years: A
Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad" (by Ali Dashti; Mazda), or
read some of the Hadiths. You will even read of instances in which
Muhammad had innocent people put to death (such as Abu Afak, a
120-year-old man and Asma bint Marwan the mother of five children, a
slave woman mother of two children, and the one-eye shepherd, all
murdered while they slept. Their only crime was that they somehow
offended "the prophet.")"

"According to the daily paper, Al Alam, King Hassan II of Morocco,
also the imam of his country, presented the following state of affairs
before a human rights commission on May 15, 1990: "If a Muslim says,
â??I have embraced another religion instead of Islam,â?? heâ??before he is
called to repentanceâ??will be brought before a group of medical
specialists, so that they can examine him to see if he is still in his
right mind. After he has then been called to repentance, but decides
to hold fast to the testimony of another religion not coming from
Allahâ??that is, not Islamâ??he will be judged.
It is no wonder that a major section of the Muslim population in
majority-Muslim countries like Algeria, Egypt, Turkey, and Indonesia
resists the full introduction of Shariâ??a. They do not wish to come
under the frightening yoke of oppression which demands that thieves
have their hands and feet amputated, adulterers be whipped, and
converts to Christianity be killed. However, a significant minority of
Muslims passionately demand the immediate adoption of Shariâ??a and are
prepared, in some places, to fight for it with the help of terrorism
and revolutions. In each Islamic country, militants and moderates
wrestle over the Shariâ??a"
"While the status of women varies greatly between Muslim countries, I
highly recommend two insightful books, "Not Without My Daughter" (by
Betty Mahmoody) and "Princess" (by Jean Sasson). The first book opens
a window on the lives of women in Iran, the latter on those in Saudi
Arabia. We have all been made aware recently of the extreme oppression
of women in Afghanistan. Though the Taliban has been ousted, much of
their strict legal code remains intact. While the vast majority of
Muslims condemn the extremes of the Taliban, few are willing to speak
out on behalf of the women in their own lands. Muslims have a very
difficult time understanding a true Christianâ??s marriage relationship,
in which the husband is the leader, but a servant-leader who loves his
wife enough to put her needs before his own. The New Testament
Scriptures teach that "husbands ought to love their own wives as their
own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated
his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does
the church." (Eph 5:28,29) Meanwhile the Qurâ??an says,"As for those
[wives] from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them
to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further
action against them." (4:34)

"7. THE MUSLIMâ??S RELATIONSHIP TO GOD. As important as the above points
are in answering the question "Does Islam promote Peace?", they all
pale into relative insignificance when compared to this final point.

Islam sees Muslims as slaves of Allah. While the Qurâ??an says that God
is closer to man "than his jugular vein" (50:16)â??such nearness is a
technical nearness. For Muslims, God is great, but unknowable. Like so
many who call themselves Christians, Muslims have religion, but they
do not have a personal relationship with God. If you like religion,
Islam has a lot to offer. But if you want a relationship with the one
true God and the peace and assurance that comes from knowing Him
personally, then you will need to look back into the Scriptures of the
prophets and to the Gospel of Jesus.

Muslims are quick to say, "We believe all the prophets!" and "We
believe in Jesus! He was a great prophet!" In response to these
statements, I ask my Muslim friends, "What does it mean to believe a
prophet? Does it not mean to understand and believe their message? And
where do we find the message of the prophets? Is it not in the
Scriptures of the prophets?"

The Qurâ??an frequently mentions the Torah (Taurat), the Psalms (Zabur)
and the Gospel (Injil) as being the Word of God (5:44-46; 4:163;
40:71; 10:94; etc.), and that "the Word of God shall never change.
That is the supreme triumph." (10:64) If the Qurâ??an is trustworthy to
a Muslim, and if he is honest, there is no way that he can reject "the
previous scriptures" (Qurâ??an 20:133). Yet all of my Muslim friends
reject the message of these books, saying that they have been altered,
corrupted, changed, ad nauseam. After twenty years of asking, I still
wait to hear who changed what and when. As is the case to this very
day, many of the Jews and Christians were guilty of twisting their
Scriptures with their tongue (Qurâ??an 3:71,78), but the fact is that
the Scripture was considered intact during the time of Muhammad (3:93;
10:94; 21:7; etc.)."

http://answering-islam.org.uk/NonMuslims/rights.htm
"Muslims believe that the Zimmis are Mushrikun (polytheists) for they
see the belief in the Trinity as belief in three gods. Islam is the
only true religion, they claim. Therefore, to protect Muslims from
corruption, especially against the unforgivable sin of shirk
(polytheism), its practice is forbidden among Muslims, because it is
considered the greatest abomination. When Christians practice it
publicly, it becomes an enticement and exhortation to apostasy. It is
significant here to notice that according to Muraghi, Zimmis and
infidels are polytheists and therefore, must have the same treatment.

According to Muslim jurists, the following legal ordinances must be
enforced on Zimmis (Christians and Jews alike) who reside among
Muslims:

1) 
Zimmis are not allowed to build new churches, temples, or synagogues.
They are allowed to renovate old churches or houses of worship
provided they do not allow to add any new construction. "Old churches"
are those which existed prior to Islamic conquests and are included in
a peace accord by Muslims. Construction of any church, temple, or
synagogue in the Arab Peninsula (Saudi Arabia) is prohibited. It is
the land of the Prophet and only Islam should prevail there. Yet,
Muslims, if they wish, are permitted to demolish all non-Muslim houses
of worship in any land they conquer.
2) 
Zimmis are not allowed to pray or read their sacred books out loud at
home or in churches, lest Muslims hear their prayers.
3) 
Zimmis are not allowed to print their religious books or sell them in
public places and markets. They are allowed to publish and sell them
among their own people, in their churches and temples.
4) 
Zimmis are not allowed to install the cross on their houses or
churches since it is a symbol of infidelity.
5) 
Zimmis are not permitted to broadcast or display their ceremonial
religious rituals on radio or television or to use the media or to
publish any picture of their religious ceremonies in newspaper and
magazines.
6) 
Zimmis are not allowed to congregate in the streets during their
religious festivals; rather, each must quietly make his way to his
church or temple.
7) 
Zimmis are not allowed to join the army unless there is indispensable
need for them in which case they are not allowed to assume leadership
positions but are considered mercenaries. "

Dakle, da zakljucim.
Moje misljenje o islamu je u cijelosti negativno, a vidim da nisam
jedini. Kur'an je obicno sranje, Muhamed je bio totalni ludjak, a
citava ta religija je jedna velika ludnica i klaonica, a ako islam
zavlada svijetom, to ce biti konacna i trajna propast svima koji misle
drugacije. I onda se ljudi koji slijede taj uzas vrijedjaju kad neki
castan covjek protiv te sablazni prosvjeduje. Bilo bi vam jako dobro
da se jako dobro zamislite nad gore navedenim dokazima. Kraj rasprave.

-- 
Homepage: http://www.danijel.org
Books:    http://www.ouroboros.hr