On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:00:41 +0100, "bosna_02" 
wrote:
>> Je, doista nemam muda ciniti smrtne grijehe kao lazni proroci, istina.
>
>lazni proroci, jarane, zgrcu pare, i foliraju raju da je to u ime "viseg"
>cilja,

Samo potpune budale vjeruju u takva objasnjenja. Lazni proroci, naime,
najcesce uopce ne mare za novac; uglavnom se, kao u slucaju islama,
radi o fanatizmu, i o afirmaciji vlastite vrijednosti kroz prosirenje
svjetonazora u kojemu fanatik ima vazan polozaj. A cak i da je tvoja
definicija tocna, njoj odgovara prije svega Muhamed, koji je bio
pljackas i koji je mucio i ubijao ljude da bi se dokopao njihova
blaga.

>> >"milion" puta si prozvan da navedes istorijske dokaze za svoje tvrdnje i
>> >nikad to nisi ucinio
>>
>> Mislim da ti pamcenje slabo radi. Ja sam poceo s dokazima,
>
>(prdez) onda imas pogresnu definiciju dokaza, mozes li mi onda prvo
>objasniti sta je po tebi "dokaz"?

Dokaz, u smislu u kojem se pojam koristi u logici, jest slijed
logickih zakljucaka utemeljenih na cinjenicama, iz kojeg ce svaki
kompetentni logicar nuzno izvesti zakljucak koji potvrdjuje tezu koja
se dokazuje. Dakle, ako se pokusava dokazati da je netko nekoga ubio,
onda se dokaz sastoji u utvrdjivanju cinjenice da je netko doista
mrtav, da je smrt nastupila nasilnim putem, te da je ubojstvo osobno
pocinio ili naredio okrivljeni. 
U slucaju matematike, dokaz je daleko preciznija stvar nego u slucaju
pravosudja ili primjerice fizike, i ono sto pravosudje drzi dokazom,
matematici ne predstavlja nista.

>a onda iz
>> toga izveo zakljucke. Ti si taj koji na to nisi imao sto odgovoriti
>> buduci da je neosporno, odnosno, morao bi negirati temelje islama,
>> njegovu samu povijesnu bazu.
>
>lazes, svaki tvoj "dokaz" je oboren, sto uostalom i nije neki problem

Vidim ja kako ti obaras moje dokaze, samo velis "oboreni su", i oni
sami padaju.

> ne lazi,majke ti, uzivas u ocrnjavanju muslimana

Ocrniti vas se tesko moze, buduci da sami sebe dovoljno ocrnjujete
prihvacanjem vjerovanja kakvo prihvacajte. Naprosto, sam Kur'an i
hadisi su ogranicavajuci faktor ocrnjavanja muslimana, jer se ugljen
tesko moze uciniti crnjim.

>> Eto ti popisa:
>>
>> http://www.answeringislam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/index.html
>> "As Muhammad grew in power, he began to use violence to obtain his
>> desires. He ordered the murder of many people. He himself did not go
>> out and commit the murders; he had men who were willing to do his
>> killing for him."
>
>i ovo je tebi "dokaz"
>gdje je izvor podataka, gdje su cinjenice,

http://www.answeringislam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/index.html

Sve pise, za one koji znaju citati. Izvatci:

QUOTE FROM BUKHARI, VOLUME 5, #369 

Narrated Jabir Abdullah: 
Allah's messenger said "Who is willing to kill Ka`b bin al-Ashraf who
has hurt Allah and His apostle?" Thereupon Maslama got up saying, "O
Allah's messenger! Would you like that I kill him?" The prophet said,
"Yes". Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to
deceive Ka`b). The prophet said, "You may say it." 
...

The first paragraphs in The Encyclopaedia of Islam, New Edition, Vol.
VII, 1993, p. 872, are a good concise introduction: 

AL-NADR B. AL-HARITH b. `Alkama b. Kalada b. `Abd Manaf b. `Abd al-Dar
b. Kusayy, a rich Kurayshite who, in the pre-Islamic period, carried
on trade with al-Hira and Persia, from where he is said to have
brought back books (?) and to have brought back also one or more
singing slave girls (kayna [q.v.]). 
He represented `Abd al-Dar in the group of the mut`imun, i.e. the
Meccans who were charged with supplying food for pilgrims, and he
occupied a fairly eminent position in the town. He was a strenuous
opponent of the Prophet, scoffing at him and not failing to speak up
and evoke the glories of the kings of Persia when Muhammad recalled
the miserable fate of past nations. In particular, he accused Muhammad
of retailing tales of the ancients (asatir al-awwalin [q.v. in
Suppl.]), and two Kur'anic verses containing precisely this expression
(VIII, 31; LXXXIII, 13) are stated to have been specifically connected
with him. The Kur'an is likewise said to have alluded to this
personage, amongst other enemies of the Prophet in various passages,
notably VI, 8-9, XLV, 6-7/7-8. He fought at Badr [q.v.] in the pagan
ranks and was captured. Muhammad then killed him personally and `Ali
cut off his head with a blow of his sword, but the fact is disputed
since a hadith says that the damned who will suffer the cruellest
punishment on Judgement Day are those who have killed a prophet or
whom a prophet has killed. The most accredited version is that `Ali b.
Abi Talib executed him in cold blood after having secured him in bonds
(sabran) in a place called al-Safra'; ... 
...

In The Life of Muhammad being A. Guillaume's translation of Sirat
Rasul Allah by Ibn Hisham, on page 438 we read: 

One of Yamin's family told me that the apostle said to Yamin, 'Have
you seen the way your cousin has treated me and what he proposed to
do?' Thereupon Yamin gave a man money to kill `Amr b. Jihash and he
did kill him, or so they allege. 
...

Further details about this incident are given by Ibn Ishaq in his
Sirat Rasul Allah as translated by A. Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad,
page 369: 

THE AFFAIR OF MUHAYYISA AND HUWAYYISA 
The apostle said, 'Kill any Jew that falls into your power.' Thereupon
Muhayyisa b. Mas`ud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with
whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa
was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When
Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, 'You enemy
of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from
his wealth?' Muhayyisa answered, 'Had the one who ordered me to kill
him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.' He said
that this was the beginning of Huwayyisa's acceptance of Islam. The
other replied, 'By God, if Muhammad had ordered you to kill me would
you have killed me?' He said, 'Yes, by God, had he ordered me to cut
off your head I would have done so.' He exclaimed, 'By God, a religion
which can bring you to this is marvellous!' and he became a Muslim. 
...

>FromIbn Sa`d's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, translated by S. Moinul
Haq, volume 2, page 31. 

SARIYYAH OF `UMAYR IBN `ADI 
Then (occurred) the sariyyah of `Umayr ibn `Adi Ibn Kharashah
al-Khatmi against `Asma' Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when
five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning
of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah.
`Asma' was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to
revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against
him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and
entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was
one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he
was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in
her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning
prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to
him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there
something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No. Two goats will
butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from
the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him `Umayr, "basir"
(the seeing). 

>mislis da bi ovo bilo koji sud prihvatio kao dokaz?

Svaki pravedni sud, da.

>i ovaj sajt ti je "dokaz"? :-))))

Nije, dokaz su tekstovi na tom siteu.

>a sumnjam da je svima ostalima dokaz, 

Samo ti sumnjaj.

>eto opet valjas gluposti, niti jedan musliman se ne klanja Muhammedu a.s.,
>svi muslimani se klanjaju Allahu dz.s., toliko o tvom poznavanju Islama

Svi se vi klanjate jedino Muhamedu, jer vam bez njega ne bi bilo
Allaha. Allah je njegova izmisljotina.

>btw jel to u hrvatskom jeziku ne postoji rijec hriscanstvo?

Ne postoji, rijec je cisti srbizam.

Inace, ti si takav beskrajni primitivac, da me uzasava naprosto sama
mogucnost da se ljudsko bice moze degradirati na razinu tolikog
debilizma. Uzas jedan. Tvoji tekstovi izgledaju kao uradak bezobraznog
i neodgojenog derana od deset godina.

--
http://www.danijel.org/